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Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

Consider comparing a quad las Predator to a quad las Mortis Contemptor. (assuming full wounds)
The Mortis Contemptor has WS2+ (vs 6+), BS2+ (vs 3+), S7 (vs 6), 4A (vs 3) and a 5++. For 206pts.
The Predator has a 12'move (vs 9'), +1W and the option to take a stormbolter and HK missile. For 202pts.
Those extra 4 points get you a SIGNIFICANT upgrade over the Predator, Unless I've missed something?

Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

could be, the forge world stuff is a bit... wonky. so ti may be priced poorly.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

The price does seem low. It looks like it's based on taking a normal contemptor and sticking lascannons on it instead of looking at what a contemptor with 4 lascannons is actually worth.
Hardly the worst thing FW have ever written, but clearly not good.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

Well it can take 1 less wound before degrading.
Tbh though i htink the problem is the predator nto the relic contemptor, the predator for some reason lost a point of toughness compared to the vindicator which has always been the same armour wise

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

GAdvance wrote:
Well it can take 1 less wound before degrading.
Tbh though i htink the problem is the predator nto the relic contemptor, the predator for some reason lost a point of toughness compared to the vindicator which has always been the same armour wise

Yeah that bumbs me out a bit. also makes the FW reinforced armor bits pointless.

Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

So what do you guys think about this:
Razor back with twin linked heavy flame (Assault weapon). Concede first turn to enemy. You advance until you are in their face, shoot your flaming gun of furry.
Turn 2, enemy shoots at your razorback - maybe even charges it. Razorback tanks like a boss. On your turn you disembark 6 sternguard veterans with combi flamer bolters.
Incase of your razorback being in combat it falls back. You shoot the enemy unit with 6 bolters - rapid fire 1. So 12 bolter shots average of 3+ = 10 hits. Then flamers average of 3.5 hits per flamer x6 = 21 auto hits
Total of 31 hits. Then you charge in and hit them again with chainswords and whatnot.
Sounds like a plan?
Now imagine an army with two of those squads and assault terminators coming in on turn 2.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

the_Jakman wrote:
Consider comparing a quad las Predator to a quad las Mortis Contemptor. (assuming full wounds)
The Mortis Contemptor has WS2+ (vs 6+), BS2+ (vs 3+), S7 (vs 6), 4A (vs 3) and a 5++. For 206pts.
The Predator has a 12'move (vs 9', +1W and the option to take a stormbolter and HK missile. For 202pts.
Those extra 4 points get you a SIGNIFICANT upgrade over the Predator, Unless I've missed something?

Predators are extremely overpriced (their hull costs >30 points more than a Rhino despite being worse), so comparing them to units with similar roles ends up looking pretty bad. That's not really Forge World's fault, though - you can do a similar comparison with Razorbacks or Devastators. I feel like Predators were priced or tested at toughness 8 and got busted down to 7 late in development - all the units with similar armor from the previous editions (VIndicator, Exorcist, Ironclad) are T8 now, as are the Hunter/Stalker which actually had worse armor than the Predator.

Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

Tecliso wrote:
So what do you guys think about this:
Razor back with twin linked heavy flame (Assault weapon). Concede first turn to enemy. You advance until you are in their face, shoot your flaming gun of furry.
Turn 2, enemy shoots at your razorback - maybe even charges it. Razorback tanks like a boss. On your turn you disembark 6 sternguard veterans with combi flamer bolters.
Incase of your razorback being in combat it falls back. You shoot the enemy unit with 6 bolters - rapid fire 1. So 12 bolter shots average of 3+ = 10 hits. Then flamers average of 3.5 hits per flamer x6 = 21 auto hits
Total of 31 hits. Then you charge in and hit them again with chainswords and whatnot.
Sounds like a plan?
Now imagine an army with two of those squads and assault terminators coming in on turn 2.

Twin Heavy Flamers have been errata'd to be Heavy 2d6, so this strategy doesn't work anymore.

Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

Seems pretty strong! Really hoping the other chapters get something as impactful as that.

Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

JJ wrote:

Seems pretty strong! Really hoping the other chapters get something as impactful as that.

Wow, just what the game need, more people that can fallback and shoot. At this rate, melee is going to have a tough time in this edition.

Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

Coyote81 wrote:

JJ wrote:

Seems pretty strong! Really hoping the other chapters get something as impactful as that.

Wow, just what the game need, more people that can fallback and shoot. At this rate, melee is going to have a tough time in this edition.

At least they have to pay a penalty to do it.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

I guess that's made flamers even stronger. Fall back and hand out some more auto-hits.

Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

On the point of the predator armour value, whilst I agree that it could do with being stronger I can see GW's thinking behind it.
This is a new edition, forget what stats and rules things used to have. A vindicator model has more armour on it than a rhino thus has more toughness. The same is true for the stalker/hunter model and the exorcist.
The predator model has exactly the same model hull as a rhino and razorback thus has the same durability stats.
Everything in the new rules is designed around the models they make, pure and simple.
I'm hoping for a predator price drop when the marine codex arrives, I don't think it will have a stat change.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

On the Predator armour thing, it's more that the Vindicator had its toughness increased in line with its fluff and model, rather than the predator being nerfed. The Predator has always been described as a medium tank and it would be odd if it was as tough as a LR (either kind!).
It's also clearly not overpriced. The shooting that thing produces for its cost is seriously efficient.
That ultramarine chapter tactic is pretty interesting. It's very powerful. Wonder what my imperial fists will get, and who it applies to - whether it's just infantry as before or if vehicles get it. Redeemers that didn't care about being charged would be pretty serious.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

Mandragola wrote:
Wonder what my imperial fists will get, and who it applies to - whether it's just infantry as before or if vehicles get it.

Im dying to know my self.
since the UM one is so wide spread..
rerolls of 1s for all bolter type weapon is 99% for sure
the second part (if we even get one) is probably Dev/heavy supports get to do a thing. the previous edition it was reroll pen right? then we probably will get reroll wounds.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

I'd love to see the re-rolls of 1 again. If not I'd also like to see something like -1AP on all bolt weapons (feels like we're sorely missing that at the moment for bringing down hordes).
With the Ultras rules being completely army-wide, I'm not sure we'll see something Devastator specific. Heavy Support buffs could be cool though.
I'd also love to see Lysander get a few more unique rules and become a bit more appealing to use, he's one of the reasons I started the army.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

JJ wrote:
I'd love to see the re-rolls of 1 again. If not I'd also like to see something like -1AP on all bolt weapons (feels like we're sorely missing that at the moment for bringing down hordes).
With the Ultras rules being completely army-wide, I'm not sure we'll see something Devastator specific. Heavy Support buffs could be cool though.
I'd also love to see Lysander get a few more unique rules and become a bit more appealing to use, he's one of the reasons I started the army.

Besides hot ST10 no penalty thunder hammer?

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

Desubot wrote:

JJ wrote:
I'd love to see the re-rolls of 1 again. If not I'd also like to see something like -1AP on all bolt weapons (feels like we're sorely missing that at the moment for bringing down hordes).
With the Ultras rules being completely army-wide, I'm not sure we'll see something Devastator specific. Heavy Support buffs could be cool though.
I'd also love to see Lysander get a few more unique rules and become a bit more appealing to use, he's one of the reasons I started the army.

Besides hot ST10 no penalty thunder hammer?

I sat and compared him with my friend's Arjac model, who just seemed like a copy of him with better buffs for the guys around him and for less points.
But I may have missed something!

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

JJ wrote:

Desubot wrote:

JJ wrote:
I'd love to see the re-rolls of 1 again. If not I'd also like to see something like -1AP on all bolt weapons (feels like we're sorely missing that at the moment for bringing down hordes).
With the Ultras rules being completely army-wide, I'm not sure we'll see something Devastator specific. Heavy Support buffs could be cool though.
I'd also love to see Lysander get a few more unique rules and become a bit more appealing to use, he's one of the reasons I started the army.

Besides hot ST10 no penalty thunder hammer?

I sat and compared him with my friend's Arjac model, who just seemed like a copy of him with better buffs for the guys around him and for less points.
But I may have missed something!

one less wound
less consistent weapon damage outside of characters or monsters.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

Re-roll bolter 1s to hit would be sad, seeing as you'd want a captain around anyway to give that for any special weapons in those squads. To wound would be better, i suppose, but hopefully they get something actually strong like +1 AP, assault 2, or count bolters as pistols.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

jcd386 wrote:
Re-roll bolter 1s to hit would be sad, seeing as you'd want a captain around anyway to give that for any special weapons in those squads. To wound would be better, i suppose, but hopefully they get something actually strong like +1 AP, assault 2, or count bolters as pistols.

Realistically its not happening. thats way over doing it.
Even the smurf ones arent actually that good.
realistically +1 ld is a throw away since most marines will basically never take moral or are already far dead to be effective. jumping out of assault is also going to be very minor as most assault themed armies would of mulched a shooty marine squad anyway.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

Letting Bolters be used like pistols would be interesting actually, i don't think it'd be quite good enough on it's own but it's a cool start that makes me think of Imperial Fists firing and holding the line whilst being ripped at by hormagaunts and instead of switching to knives and fists just calmly firing and reloading

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

GAdvance wrote:
Letting Bolters be used like pistols would be interesting actually, i don't think it'd be quite good enough on it's own but it's a cool start that makes me think of Imperial Fists firing and holding the line whilst being ripped at by hormagaunts and instead of switching to knives and fists just calmly firing and reloading

Sounds really cool.
honestly im hoping they do justice and make all the chapter tactics super cool but not overly derp.

Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

JJ wrote:
Seems pretty strong! Really hoping the other chapters get something as impactful as that.

This seems very good.
I hope the Imperial Fists rules are this good. Re-roll 1's on all bolters is probably going to be at least one of the two rules, and I'll be fine with that. I think it's better than people think.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

Its way better than people think.
so far the UM are exceptionally minor or wont ever come into play.

Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

Didn't take long for the powercreep to begin.
I expected the chapter tactics to improve the various SM-armies (it is after all, free rules), but I didn't expect them* to be that damn strong.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

Desubot wrote:
Its way better than people think.
so far the UM are exceptionally minor or wont ever come into play.

The Leadership bonus is minor, but falling back and shooting is a huge advantage.

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

wtwlf123 wrote:

Desubot wrote:
Its way better than people think.
so far the UM are exceptionally minor or wont ever come into play.

The Leadership bonus is minor, but falling back and shooting is a huge advantage.

From the NR thread, the only time you ever really assault is
A) with a dedicated Assault unit that will for the most part end a unit they charge.
B) to shock lock with transports though if that is the case you just commit 1.5 units to 2+ which isnt that good of a situation.
C) locking down vehicles (they dont get CT so we are good here)
D) swarm locking to bog down a unit for a few turns with some flavor of horde.
asides from D (which a ton of people complain about anyway) B) is the only situation where there is a benefit and i cant see people using it as a viable tactic. (maybe its more a tau tactic im not sure)

Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

What? Why are you assuming that you're the one that assaulted? You can fall back the turn after you get charged by the opponent, and then immediately fire all your weapons.

Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

Am I the only one that is positively giddy with anticipation for what my Chapter's Tactics will be? Will Crimson Fists get their own Chapter Tactics (adapted from their altered battle tactics used by Pedro Kantor), or will they have reverted to using standard Imperial Fists Tactics since they have been bolstered by Primaris Marines? Heck, I am excited to see what others get. Will Black Templars be able to maximize their Ripping and Tearing? They can't take Psykers, maybe they will still get to deny the witch like bosses? Will Raven Guard get to Infiltrate their Tactical Marines? Will White Scars get some variation of Hit and Run (though Ultramarines kinda stole their thunder there). Maximum Burnination for Salamanders? Vehicles with healing ability for Iron Hands?
I am excited for the new codex. I still think Chapter Tactics should be -1 CP in order to have them in effect, though.

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